Similar Situations Anyone?

This happened to me a few years ago, and I'll give a little back story first. In the county I grew up in and first got into EMS, my mother had become a first responder many years ago and then took the EMT-B course,I then took the EMT-B course and tested (she didn't) the next year, so we both have the knowledge but I have the license (kinda cool when on a call). Anyway, I hadn't been able to test yet, but our county director had told me that I could join the first responders and that because I was aware of what I could and could not do without my license, there wouldn't be a problem with me doing anything I couldn't legally do yet. So, my mother and I are getting ready to have dinner at home, when we get paged to my high school during a basketball tournament. All we know is "neck pain." We get there, and on the way there, I already knew mom would take over since she had more experience period, and we were on the same level. We get to our pt, who is lying on the floor, in a C-collar, and NOBODY HOLDING C-SPINE. Both her school's athletic trainer, and a NURSE, didn't see the need for anyone to hold in-line. So mom tells me to hit the floor and hold C-Spine. We find out that our pt had collided head on w/another who ended up w/2 black knees, and our patient had hit her C6 or C7 (the one that somewhat protrudes right before the thoracic area). She had walked off the court on her own, and after sitting down started complaining of neck pain and some numbness in her extremities. Instead of leaving her seated, they then tell her to move herself to the floor and lie down on the sideline (where they did continue with the game anyway, but luckily we had enough people to surround). As I am holding in-line, the nurse tells me that I can let go of her head because there is a c-collar, and then proceeds to take my mothers stethoscope and bp cuff from her and do vitals. Mom and I look at each other, and in our 'mother-daughter look' tell each other, let it go, too public of a place. She had told us that she was a nurse from the next state over. As my mother begins her assessment and checking PMS, the trainer informs us that we are scaring her by asking her these questions. My mother calmly replies she is doing her job, and that the incoming crew would be doing the exact same thing. It seriously took everything in me to not want to set the nurse straight about pre-hospital emergency care. I thought nurses did ride time? If there are places that don't require it, I think ALL places should. I even asked both our director and my EMT instructor and they both told me the same thing, and the director told me I could tell even a Nurse this if it ever happened again.
"This is my county, my jurisdiction, and by MY local protocols I have to do such and such. . ." The director told me that even though we enjoy the extra hands at times, they can be too much of a hassle, but that in that situation, feel free to ask them to step back, and if there was a problem to give them the name and number of his office.

Now, I will say, I love nurses, I am going to school to be one myself. But this woman thoroughly pissed me off, along with the trainer.

Here's another my mother informed me of.

She was at my brother's H.S. football game and one of our boys got hit hard enough, he couldn't get up on his own, and he was complaining of neck and back pain. Not too uncommon for FB right? Just call the crew down from stand-by and let them check him out and take him if needed, right? Well, not according to OUR trainer. He sits the player up, removes his helmet, then proceeds to help him to his feet. After which, they decided to WALK him up to the crew on stand-by. My mother was standing up at the rig the entire time talking with the crew to see get an update on pt they had on a call together when the trainer brings the player up. Mom, and the crew, were infuriated!! My mother made sure to tell my brother to NEVER let anyone take his helmet off unless it happened to be the EMS crew, if he got hit, and that if he didn't feel he could get up on his own, to NEVER let anyone stand him up.

It seriously makes me wonder sometimes if the license really does mean something.

I don't want to bash higher licenses, nurses, trainers whatever, because overall I've had good experiences with them. Just wondering if anyone else has had a similar situation.

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Scott on April 20, 2009 at 7:33am

#1. Trainers at the high school level in some states don't have to have ANY certification.
#2. When dealing with another medical "professional" in the field it will sometimes push your tact to the breaking point. Remain professional, stick with your protocol. Do not get in a yelling match with another responder on the scene of a call. Even if you're right you still end up looking bad in the public eye. If they are actively trying to do something that will be detrimental to the patient get the LEO's involved. Try to take the opportunity after the call to explain why you did what you did.
Most of the time the doctor/nurse or whoever is actually trying to help but in the prehospital environment they are out of their element. The smart ones realize this and are willing to step back into a support role. Sometimes their pride gets in the way just like it does with some of us when we're outside of our jurisdiction.
Good luck
scott

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Permalink Reply by Erin Crist on April 20, 2009 at 7:03pm

Thank you both. It's really encouraging to hear (well read lol) what you guys have to say. I've always been worried about stepping on toes but hearing it from others along with my instructor and our director. I was afraid of what would happen if I was out of county and something like this happened, but not now. Thank you!

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Permalink Reply by Dewayne on May 6, 2009 at 5:49pm

LOL!! That's a good one!

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Permalink Reply by Joshua on April 21, 2009 at 9:43am

Yes the nurse was out of place. Nurses are not trained in pre-hospital emergency care, so in the street your word overrules theirs. Alot of students at my college are Nursing majors, and they're fairly useless when we respond to on campus emergencies. Also trainers do not have any first-aid certification. However an unspoken rule at sports events is that EMS stands out of the way until the trainers call us over. Its not right, but thats how it goes. Also just for consideration, since you are the EMT and your mother is only a First Responder, than technically you should have been Teching the call. I have personal experience with this and if something were to happen and you were sued, you would get screwed because you handed off care to a person with a lower certification than you, thats a no-no in EMS. I know your mom has more experience and you respect that, the same goes at my department, but the higher certification should handle the call. Just don't wanna see a good EMT get screwed because of legal bullshit, we've had it happen here.

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Permalink Reply by Erin Crist on April 21, 2009 at 11:17am

I hadn't even tested yet. At the time, I had no license behind my name. I was only a First Responder. I had only completed the course, same as she had. After I tested and got my license, then she fell in behind me. Sorry for the confusion.

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Permalink Reply by Joshua on April 22, 2009 at 7:23pm

ahh got cha! lol

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Permalink Reply by Ahed on April 23, 2009 at 4:45am

I agree with Scott and Ricardo, Nurses they are very good in hospital set up, and Paramedic/EMT/First Responder they are very good in there Pre Hospital setup, in the place i am working on it we had the same issue regarding the Nurses, we recruit them in EMS section but after conducting the Bridging course of the EMT Basic and Intermediate courses to release them in the Pre Hospital section (the idea to train them in the concept of Pre Hospital care)

But in the end you did you best, you act according to the level of your training not beyond and i think Good Samaritan laws will support you if you are out of duty, my friend its your kindness to help and to assist.

Good Samaritan laws are meant to protect lay people who, for no reason other than kindness, come to the aid of fellow human beings in need

good luck

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Permalink Reply by Evan Gunter on April 28, 2009 at 1:26pm

In a word, OFTEN. I have been in EMS for 11 years now and in more states and capacities than I can remember (I'm a nomad). You will run into those people everywhere. Remember, your job is to treat the scene as well as the patient. Oftentimes, that entails picking your battles. Don't get too frustrated, it leads to burn out and bad attitudes.

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Permalink Reply by Francis Baker on September 14, 2012 at 10:30pm

This is SO TRUE, especially way out in the back country. Some nurses in small rural facilities seem to thing they are god when it comes to this. They have been a nurse for a number of years, work in that small ER with minimal call volume, do not have ANY street experience nor do they believe we know anything. I have basically just retired after about 30 years in this profession and it is still happening. I must say, in defense of some nurses, that those who want to be in emergency medicine have taken the time to go to B school and get national and state certs & license, some volly in their hometowns, some just 'know' when the pt comes in by ambo that they have a properly protected and diagnosed pt. Small example of mis-or rather lack of proper training was the nurse who had us come to the ER for a walkin fall victim who was complaining of neck pain and when we walked up with the board, collar and straps, says to the pt, "Oh good, the EMT's are here, lie down on the floor so they can get you on the board" I kid you not! This is a nurse of several years with that CCNT training that is NOT what they need for ER duty. Anyway, we obviously made the young man continue to stand, did our thing and then moved him to an examroom. After this she argued we didn't have to do that and that wasn't how CCNT taught her! She was advised that OUR portocols are meant to reduce injury and not cause more, where upon we left. Another incident involved a walkin MVC pt that a DOCTOR put in a collar, and when we arrived for transport of neck pain, etc with no c-spine clearance, we find him SITTING UP semi-fowler in the hosptial bed! Yes, they are out there everywhere!!!!! I TRULY believe that any Dr, nurse, or PA that wants to really be GOOD at trauma medicince should take the B and/or P course, do some ride time and get a feel for what they are being brought and what we do. On the good side, we also had a doc who we worked with stop at an MVC scene, walked up, ASKED if there was anything he could do, we gave a short rundown of our pt load and injuries and he says, "well, I see you have it well in hand, these pts' are getting the best" and turned and walked away and said 'any time you need me, just call!!!!! This was one of the best docs I EVER worked with, he REALLY trusted his EMS personnel to do our jobs and TRUSTED our diagnosis that we called in to him. He ALWAYS gave us the thumbs up for our work, and occassionaly gave us some tips on newer procedures. This doc worked some ot the biggest ED's across the country! Sorry we lost him to another facility. Anyway, yes, if you want to tell me what I am doing is not correct, show me where my training, policies, protocols and procedures are not correct. If not, STFU!!!!! Good luck young lady, it sounds like to have a great mentor in your mother, listen and learn from her and yes, bite your tongue when that happens, there will be a time in private to bustass later!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Stay safe